Colorado Shooting
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Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:39 pm
#13987- sharpPUSB
- Location : City of Dreams, England
Vette wrote:
2009 England and Wales violent crime rate: 1600 per 100,000 citizens
2009 United States violent crime rate: 403.9 per 100,000 citizens (and crime is dropping in the US, unlike in the UK)
Sure you have fewer gun related crimes, but your criminals obviously find other ways.
Your Home Office gave the violent crime number in terms of per 1000 people, which made it be 16 per 1,000. If we did the same in the US, it would be 4 and some change.
What our two countries class as a 'violent crime' may differ vastly. Whats classed as violent here, may not be violent in America.
Crime is rising, because of austerity. Jobs have been cut, benefits have been cut. Policing has been cut. Crime is always going to rise. I'm suprised American crime is falling. Maybe stats have been manipulated? Got a link?
EDIT:
Murder rates per capita (2009)
# 1 Colombia: 0.617847 per 1,000 people
# 24 United States: 0.042802 per 1,000 people
# 26 India: 0.0344083 per 1,000 people
# 44 Canada: 0.0149063 per 1,000 people
# 46 United Kingdom: 0.0140633 per 1,000 people
Source - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Last edited by sharp on Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:54 pm; edited 2 times in total
Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:46 pm
#13988- sharpPUSB
- Location : City of Dreams, England
Triple_0_Ought wrote:
What if someone pulls a knife on you when you get a pint of milk? What if you witness a assault, rape, or murder in progress?
Don't know why you would be worried about people carrying concealed anyway. The crime rate among those with a concealed carry permit is far below the average.
If I go and get a pint of milk, and someone pulls a knife on me. I'll give them what they want.
If I go and buy a pint of milk, and someone pulls a gun on, and i'm carrying a gun. I'll probably pull my gun out. That spooks the criminal, shots get fired. People get killed
You see my point?
Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:53 pm
#13989- Kaz--MoneyMember
- Location : Calgary, AB, Canada
Triple_0_Ought wrote:What if someone pulls a knife on you when you get a pint of milk? What if you witness a assault, rape, or murder in progress?
There are endless "what if's" in the world. Creating hypotheticals doens't advance the discussion any.
Why not have mandatory CPR and first aid training....because the liklihood of witnessing something that required those skill sets is far more likely.
Triple_0_Ought wrote:Don't know why you would be worried about people carrying concealed anyway. The crime rate among those with a concealed carry permit is far below the average.
I'm not concerned with carrying, I'm concerned with the argument that more guns on more people is a good thing for a civilized society.
Triple_0_Ought wrote:When Texas finally allowed concealed carry, there were the usual warnings that there would be a Wild West shootout on every corner and people would murder each other for the silliest reasons. None of that happened, and in some places crime actually went down.
Crime, murder, gun violence, theft, burglery, rape, assault, etc, change all the time. They change for a number of reasons....some of which are not examined all that thoroughly....like, the relationship with those crimes and unemployment, those crimes and mental welfare, job satisfaction, or shifts in political policies, police staffing, or police mandate....
Pointing to a rise or fall in general crime as the result of ONE single identifier, doesn't tell much of a story.
Here's what I mean:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
There are a lot of rises and falls, and a few large spikes. No single cause can be attributed to the effect we see in a graph.
Triple_0_Ought wrote:Don't have a permit myself, but I might look into sometime. I think of it the same way as having a fire extinguisher or a first aid kit in your car.
Neither of those has the potential to escalate a conflict, accidentally go off on an innocent bystander, be stolen and used for crime, or be at your disposal when you reach a breaking point....
Last edited by Kaz--Money on Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:55 pm
#13990- VetteBrownie
- Location : Ohio
sharp wrote:Vette wrote:
2009 England and Wales violent crime rate: 1600 per 100,000 citizens
2009 United States violent crime rate: 403.9 per 100,000 citizens (and crime is dropping in the US, unlike in the UK)
Sure you have fewer gun related crimes, but your criminals obviously find other ways.
Your Home Office gave the violent crime number in terms of per 1000 people, which made it be 16 per 1,000. If we did the same in the US, it would be 4 and some change.
What our two countries class as a 'violent crime' may differ vastly. Whats classed as violent here, may not be violent in America.
Crime is rising, because of austerity. Jobs have been cut, benefits have been cut. Policing has been cut. Crime is always going to rise. I'm suprised American crime is falling. Maybe stats have been manipulated? Got a link?
Violent crime is violent crime. House Office calls is "violence against the person."
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] There's your link from the FBI. No stats manipulated, you use that an excuse to get out of being proven wrong.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Last edited by Vette on Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:56 pm
#13991- NoSkinnyLadiesMember
Cops love civilians who carry concealed weapons with a permit. It makes their job easier.
Besides, giving the police more power makes things worse for everybody, Gun carry permits create a sense of deterrence, much like nations with nuclear weapons.
If everybody is packing heat, nobody wants to get shot.
Gun's are innocent, it takes a finger to pull the trigger.
Also, I'm wondering where the hell an unemployed college kid got the money for around 20,000 dollars worth the equipment, None of the stuff he had is cheap, or even easy to obtain, especially the gas grenades.
Besides, giving the police more power makes things worse for everybody, Gun carry permits create a sense of deterrence, much like nations with nuclear weapons.
If everybody is packing heat, nobody wants to get shot.
Gun's are innocent, it takes a finger to pull the trigger.
Also, I'm wondering where the hell an unemployed college kid got the money for around 20,000 dollars worth the equipment, None of the stuff he had is cheap, or even easy to obtain, especially the gas grenades.
Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:01 pm
#13992- VetteBrownie
- Location : Ohio
Do tanks create war? Does beer create drunk drivers?
Cigarettes don't create smoke if you are just carrying it around. You can't get high by carrying a bag of weed. Guns are innocent. Outlawing everything that has the potential to cause harm would make us all live in a bubble wrapped cube all day.
Cigarettes don't create smoke if you are just carrying it around. You can't get high by carrying a bag of weed. Guns are innocent. Outlawing everything that has the potential to cause harm would make us all live in a bubble wrapped cube all day.
Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:10 pm
#13993- sharpPUSB
- Location : City of Dreams, England
chris hanson wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
You're more than twice as likely to get stabbed in the UK than you are to be shot in the US
Thats cause we dont have guns freely available. I'd rather be stabbed than shot!
You dont see many mass stabbings....
I expect more from you Hanson... posting a blog!!!! And, again it depends on what is a 'knife crime'
Its illegal to carry a knife in public without good reason in the whole of the UK. Is that the same for every state?
Last edited by sharp on Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:11 pm
#13994- sharpPUSB
- Location : City of Dreams, England
@vette. Maybe you missed my edit ?
Murder rates per capita (2009)
# 1 Colombia: 0.617847 per 1,000 people
# 24 United States: 0.042802 per 1,000 people
# 26 India: 0.0344083 per 1,000 people
# 44 Canada: 0.0149063 per 1,000 people
# 46 United Kingdom: 0.0140633 per 1,000 people
Whilst we may be more violent, less people die. Shirley thats a good thing?
Murder rates per capita (2009)
# 1 Colombia: 0.617847 per 1,000 people
# 24 United States: 0.042802 per 1,000 people
# 26 India: 0.0344083 per 1,000 people
# 44 Canada: 0.0149063 per 1,000 people
# 46 United Kingdom: 0.0140633 per 1,000 people
Whilst we may be more violent, less people die. Shirley thats a good thing?
Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:15 pm
#13995- NoSkinnyLadiesMember
Every farmer and his mums got a gun.sharp wrote:chris hanson wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
You're more than twice as likely to get stabbed in the UK than you are to be shot in the US
Thats cause we dont have guns freely available. I'd rather be stabbed than shot!
You dont see many mass stabbings....
Like who?
Farmers.
...Farmers Mums.
Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:16 pm
#13996- VetteBrownie
- Location : Ohio
sharp wrote:chris hanson wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
You're more than twice as likely to get stabbed in the UK than you are to be shot in the US
Thats cause we dont have guns freely available. I'd rather be stabbed than shot!
You dont see many mass stabbings....
Victim mentality. "I'll just give him what I want" then he'll stab you anyways. If he pulls a gun, he should get what he wants - death. Letting criminals push you around is just stupid.
You don't see many mass shootings either.
Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:18 pm
#13997- lilaclegendMember
- Location : not where i want to be
wow. can't believe we're now arguing over where you're more likely to be murdered etc.
both the usa and uk have problems with violence. compared to other countries in the 'western world', we are certainly very high on the list.
but i would say it should be illegal to carry a gun, just like i think people shouldn't carry knives.
a gun is a very dangerous weapon, and put into the wrong hands, it can cause great devastation. as proven by this incident.
but the usa isn't alone.. haven't read every post.. but has anybody even mentioned anders brevik? and that was in norway.. a very seemingly peaceful country. so it can happen anywhere.
both the usa and uk have problems with violence. compared to other countries in the 'western world', we are certainly very high on the list.
but i would say it should be illegal to carry a gun, just like i think people shouldn't carry knives.
a gun is a very dangerous weapon, and put into the wrong hands, it can cause great devastation. as proven by this incident.
but the usa isn't alone.. haven't read every post.. but has anybody even mentioned anders brevik? and that was in norway.. a very seemingly peaceful country. so it can happen anywhere.
Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:21 pm
#13998- Kaz--MoneyMember
- Location : Calgary, AB, Canada
NoSkinnyLadies wrote:Cops love civilians who carry concealed weapons with a permit. It makes their job easier.
This is a pretty sweeping generalization. I have read studies of whole statewide departmens where the state policing agency simply moved from "in opposition to concealed carry" to "neutral". A progression toward your thesis, however, not an affirmation of it.
NoSkinnyLadies wrote:Besides, giving the police more power makes things worse for everybody.
No one argues "giving the police more power". No one wants anyone to have more power than what is deemed necessary to doa job. However, while arguing that police shouldn't have more power, you argue that Joe Schmoe off the street should be given more power, in the form of carrying a weapon that can take the life of another human?
These are random people who have simply satisified a few criteria to carry a gun they already own. And this is a good thing? How about employing more police? These are people trained in far greater detail than Joe Schmoe ever would....and have more rights to perform anti-crime related activities.
If you think that the simple presence of a civilain firearm is a fair substitute for police work, and should actually be increased in lieu of increased presence, then I seriously question your mental faculties.
NoSkinnyLadies wrote:Gun carry permits create a sense of deterrence, much like nations with nuclear weapons.
It isn't a deterent. It's a concealed weapon. if everyone carries, it's the same as everyone not having one at all. it comes down to who is foolish enough to throw a punch, swing a bat, or, in this case, pull the trigger.
NoSkinnyLadies wrote:If everybody is packing heat, nobody wants to get shot.
Gun's are innocent, it takes a finger to pull the trigger.
Trying to follow this logic. If guns are innocent and it takes a finger to pull a trigger, how does this justify carrying a gun? Any gun requires a trigger pull to be effective, especially if someone is staring into an equally dark barrel. First to pull is the first criminal. Licensed or not.
Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:22 pm
#13999- sharpPUSB
- Location : City of Dreams, England
Vette wrote:
Victim mentality. "I'll just give him what I want" then he'll stab you anyways. If he pulls a gun, he should get what he wants - death. Letting criminals push you around is just stupid. Wow. Challenging a drug addled criminal is just stupid
You don't see many mass shootings either.
There was one on Friday. Show me a mass UK stabbing, where over 5 people died, and 10 were injured
Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:24 pm
#14000- sharpPUSB
- Location : City of Dreams, England
lilaclegend wrote:wow. can't believe we're now arguing over where you're more likely to be murdered etc.
Just debating... well I am anyway?
Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:32 pm
#14004- VetteBrownie
- Location : Ohio
Mass shooting, mass stabbing. Doesn't matter, because its only 1 incident. 1 incident is now causing knee jerk reactions when in reality, overall the US is getting safer. I hate knee jerk reactions like this, and like the ironically named PATRIOT Act. Murder rates in the US are slowly dropping and that's with more guns being sold every day, and almost every state having a Concealed Carry law (all but Illinois allow it). We obviously aren't there yet, the US has a high murder rate for an industrial country, but our cities are plagued with a gang culture. The top crime cities are Baltimore, Detroit, and DC, all cities plagued with gangs and with their share of ghettos. Banning guns doesn't change the mentality of the culture, and in the end, the government never wins are regulating morality. Just look at the war on drugs. Completely hopeless.
Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:37 pm
#14005- sharpPUSB
- Location : City of Dreams, England
Vette wrote:Mass shooting, mass stabbing. Doesn't matter, because its only 1 incident. 1 incident is now causing knee jerk reactions when in reality, overall the US is getting safer. I hate knee jerk reactions like this, and like the ironically named PATRIOT Act. Murder rates in the US are slowly dropping and that's with more guns being sold every day, and almost every state having a Concealed Carry law (all but Illinois allow it). We obviously aren't there yet, the US has a high murder rate for an industrial country, but our cities are plagued with a gang culture. The top crime cities are Baltimore, Detroit, and DC, all cities plagued with gangs and with their share of ghettos. Banning guns doesn't change the mentality of the culture, and in the end, the government never wins are regulating morality. Just look at the war on drugs. Completely hopeless.
The UK is probably more violent due to the fact that we dont have guns.
I could be in a bar in the UK, some spills a drink on me and I could start a fight with him, knowing that the worse he can do is pull a knife on me. In the US, that would be a gun.
You'll probably point out that I've made your argument for you there. but I've not.... I', drunk and stoned, and about to go to bed.... knowing that I wont get shot
Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:39 pm
#14006- chris hansonMember
Sorry sharp just flustered and a little out of it.
Will post back coherent response later, heading out to golf.
Will post back coherent response later, heading out to golf.
Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:46 pm
#14007- VetteBrownie
- Location : Ohio
I'm going to respectfully pull out of debating US gun laws with non-citizens of the United States. Still, nice chatting, I love a good debate with some good friends. Love you all (no homo)
For the record, I've never pulled a gun on someone, my dad has never, his parents have never, his brothers have never (except the one that was a cop). We all have guns, but we aren't violent with them. We hunt and go to the range for some time away from home. But we have morals and mental stability, something almost all criminals lack.
For the record, I've never pulled a gun on someone, my dad has never, his parents have never, his brothers have never (except the one that was a cop). We all have guns, but we aren't violent with them. We hunt and go to the range for some time away from home. But we have morals and mental stability, something almost all criminals lack.
Last edited by Vette on Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:46 pm
#14008- Kaz--MoneyMember
- Location : Calgary, AB, Canada
I understand where the question of statistical fudgery might come in, even from the CIA.gov site. Compstat in NY was evidence of the need of some departments to fudge numbers to make pretty stats.
Much like hackers and boosters in COD. lol
But, here is an interesting article on the drop in crime. none of the factors listed....surprisingly.....is the increase in civilians carrying firearms.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Much like hackers and boosters in COD. lol
But, here is an interesting article on the drop in crime. none of the factors listed....surprisingly.....is the increase in civilians carrying firearms.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:48 pm
#14009- Kaz--MoneyMember
- Location : Calgary, AB, Canada
Vette wrote:I'm going to respectfully pull out of debating US gun laws with non-citizens of the United States. Still, nice chatting, I love a good debate with some good friends. Love you all (no homo)
What does it have to do with non-citizens?
I have had too many people bow out of political conversations....because I was Canadian.
It's not a bordered discussion. Guns are international. Statistics on gun crime are international. Seems it's irrelevent to point to nationality as a justification for silence.
Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:00 pm
#14011- VetteBrownie
- Location : Ohio
Kaz--Money wrote:I understand where the question of statistical fudgery might come in, even from the CIA.gov site. Compstat in NY was evidence of the need of some departments to fudge numbers to make pretty stats.
Much like hackers and boosters in COD. lol
But, here is an interesting article on the drop in crime. none of the factors listed....surprisingly.....is the increase in civilians carrying firearms.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
As a libertarian, I doubt much about the government. But when in a debate, I have to assume that "facts" posted by the government are really "facts." It gets me into a sticky situation sometimes, since I'm a natural doubter. I'll read the article later, but drop in crime is good no matter the reason. Increase in gun ownership doesn't need to be a reason. Gun ownership is something that IMO can have varying consequences. A lot of times, its neutral. Some people collect guns as a hobby. A lot of times, its positive. I know plenty of people that enjoy going to the range, I know me and my dad do. It's something me and him enjoy to just hang out as dudes. Then there's hunting! But unfortunately, it can also be negative. That's the murder and violence that they can wield. But outlawing guns because they can be an instrument of violence puzzles me. I know where you guys come from in your statements and I respect your opinion. But I mean, my laptop can be an instrument of violence if I hit someone over the head with it! But in the end, dumb, psychotic, violent people are going to do dumb, psychotic, violent things. Just look at this example. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
When I read that, I was sickened that someone my age could beat a disabled man to death. But that's what bad parenting and gang violence can do.
Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:09 pm
#14013- VetteBrownie
- Location : Ohio
This is about the suspect, and has nothing to do with the debate:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:20 pm
#14014- lilaclegendMember
- Location : not where i want to be
it makes you wonder what happens to people. what makes these people different from the majority of us. what drives them over the edge.
i wonder if we'll ever live in a world like the one in the minority report.
i wonder if we'll ever live in a world like the one in the minority report.
Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:31 pm
#14016- Kaz--MoneyMember
- Location : Calgary, AB, Canada
As a philosopher, I often look at statistical data with skepticism, knowing full well that correlation does not imply causation.
Crime went down when Obama became President. It would be silly to say that this correlation was caused by his presidency....especially when there are so many factors influencing crime.
Likewise, any data attempting to demonstrate that a reduction in firearm crime is the result of the proliferation of concealed firearms. That correlation was not caused by one single factor, and this is clear in the historical ups and downs with incidences of firearm-related crime.
I also don't think banning firearms is the answer.
To me, tougher legislation on gun ownership is a good move, so is an increase in police numbers, so are tougher penalties for habitual weapons offenses, so are assault weapons bans, so are gun registries....and stricter sales on ammunition...
Crime went down when Obama became President. It would be silly to say that this correlation was caused by his presidency....especially when there are so many factors influencing crime.
Likewise, any data attempting to demonstrate that a reduction in firearm crime is the result of the proliferation of concealed firearms. That correlation was not caused by one single factor, and this is clear in the historical ups and downs with incidences of firearm-related crime.
I also don't think banning firearms is the answer.
To me, tougher legislation on gun ownership is a good move, so is an increase in police numbers, so are tougher penalties for habitual weapons offenses, so are assault weapons bans, so are gun registries....and stricter sales on ammunition...
Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:28 pm
#14018- VetteBrownie
- Location : Ohio
If you are committing crimes with weapons that are not murders, you should have your weapons taken away. I have no problem with that, that's common sense. Increase in police force is tough, police need to collect a salary and many cities just don't have the financial breathing room in this economy. But some do, me and Syn's area has plenty of cops and a low crime rate. But our city (and township that we actually live in) has no problems with debt.
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