Colorado Shooting
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Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:10 pm
#13948- chris hansonMember
Good luck with that.
Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:53 pm
#13953- sharpPUSB
- Location : City of Dreams, England
Vette wrote:A strong person can kill people with a pencil. Murders are gonna murder, with or without guns.
Not 16, and injure 40 odd though!
Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:18 pm
#13955- Kaz--MoneyMember
- Location : Calgary, AB, Canada
I really do laugh when there are shootings and eyes turn to music, or to video games, etc. But lets look at the global phenomenon of guns, crime, poverty, etc.
The 11 countries that have higher firearm related deaths than the US are third world, mostly lawless, ruled by cartels and gangs, and extremely corrupt (Columbia, El Salvador, Guatamala, Mexico, Honduras, etc). Historically, they've had very little in terms of social, economic, or political stability.
The United States is an anomoly, a complete standout in the snapshot of firearm related deaths and homicides.
What is the wealthiest democracy in the world doing in the company of these ghetto countries?
It could be their video games, or thier music....but the one thing that never gets attention because it would be so unpatriotic to even mention: The right to bear arms.
The United States stands in the company of Cuba, Mexico, North Korea in an expressed right of citizens to possess firearms....which is even granted under Sharia Law.
So why is it that when the US gun lobby puts together cute parables and platitudes about gun rights no one ever goes back to the original source of the public acceptance of owning firearms. These cute sayings about criminal ownership vs legitimate ownership take the head-in-the-sand approach to the discussion.
The constitution is at fault, followed by the continued push by the NRA and other lobby groups to protect this amendment....but defending it is defending gun ownership for all citizens. After all, everyone is a legitimate and law abiding gun owner, whether they acquired the weapon legally or not....until they use it for a criminal activity. So, chisa could own a cache of weapons he acquired not only legally, but with the same ease as ordering something off of ebay. He could be championed by the NRA and others complicit in the gun lobby as an example of a responsible firearm owning citizen.
This is all well, until he cracked and realized that he has a huge cache of weapons at his disposal. All acquired legally. All guaranteed to him by his constitution, and all ready for his assault on society. After all, he is welcomed and accepted by the gun lobby until he decides to use them criminally. Then, his long standing right to bear arms dissolves. But, he has a constitutional right to bear them....whether he is criminal or not.
So, why are anti-gun activists shut up when the discussion turns to gun rights?
Because at this point, the lobby points to TV, it's video games, it's poverty, it's music....but by no means is it a country that puches guns and gun rights at it's citizens...not only as a consitutional right, but as a human right and a tool for serving rogue justice. The gun lobby only uses these incidences as a justification for greater proliferation of firearms within America.
You don't get a Somali kid willing to chop a fellow countryman into bits by isolating him from the horrors of crude human dissection....you do it through constant exposure, authoritative acceptance, and permissiveness.
Bottom line is, those defending the constitution and gun rights often prefer to ignore the possibility that their philosophy is even fractionally responsible for the fact that the US is 12th for per capita firearm related deaths....snuggled up right with some really outstanding democracies, economic superpowers, and examplars of personal freedom.
The 11 countries that have higher firearm related deaths than the US are third world, mostly lawless, ruled by cartels and gangs, and extremely corrupt (Columbia, El Salvador, Guatamala, Mexico, Honduras, etc). Historically, they've had very little in terms of social, economic, or political stability.
The United States is an anomoly, a complete standout in the snapshot of firearm related deaths and homicides.
What is the wealthiest democracy in the world doing in the company of these ghetto countries?
It could be their video games, or thier music....but the one thing that never gets attention because it would be so unpatriotic to even mention: The right to bear arms.
The United States stands in the company of Cuba, Mexico, North Korea in an expressed right of citizens to possess firearms....which is even granted under Sharia Law.
So why is it that when the US gun lobby puts together cute parables and platitudes about gun rights no one ever goes back to the original source of the public acceptance of owning firearms. These cute sayings about criminal ownership vs legitimate ownership take the head-in-the-sand approach to the discussion.
The constitution is at fault, followed by the continued push by the NRA and other lobby groups to protect this amendment....but defending it is defending gun ownership for all citizens. After all, everyone is a legitimate and law abiding gun owner, whether they acquired the weapon legally or not....until they use it for a criminal activity. So, chisa could own a cache of weapons he acquired not only legally, but with the same ease as ordering something off of ebay. He could be championed by the NRA and others complicit in the gun lobby as an example of a responsible firearm owning citizen.
This is all well, until he cracked and realized that he has a huge cache of weapons at his disposal. All acquired legally. All guaranteed to him by his constitution, and all ready for his assault on society. After all, he is welcomed and accepted by the gun lobby until he decides to use them criminally. Then, his long standing right to bear arms dissolves. But, he has a constitutional right to bear them....whether he is criminal or not.
So, why are anti-gun activists shut up when the discussion turns to gun rights?
Because at this point, the lobby points to TV, it's video games, it's poverty, it's music....but by no means is it a country that puches guns and gun rights at it's citizens...not only as a consitutional right, but as a human right and a tool for serving rogue justice. The gun lobby only uses these incidences as a justification for greater proliferation of firearms within America.
You don't get a Somali kid willing to chop a fellow countryman into bits by isolating him from the horrors of crude human dissection....you do it through constant exposure, authoritative acceptance, and permissiveness.
Bottom line is, those defending the constitution and gun rights often prefer to ignore the possibility that their philosophy is even fractionally responsible for the fact that the US is 12th for per capita firearm related deaths....snuggled up right with some really outstanding democracies, economic superpowers, and examplars of personal freedom.
Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:24 pm
#13956- sharpPUSB
- Location : City of Dreams, England
and... Neither Obama, or Romney are going to challenge/change the laws in an election year. Political suicide.
Politics and personal agenda are more important than human life.
@booster - 6k gun related crimes out of 70mil people isnt really alot. Imagine South London, Nottingham, and Moss Side in Manchester if guns were freely available?
Politics and personal agenda are more important than human life.
@booster - 6k gun related crimes out of 70mil people isnt really alot. Imagine South London, Nottingham, and Moss Side in Manchester if guns were freely available?
Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:25 pm
#13957- Kaz--MoneyMember
- Location : Calgary, AB, Canada
sharp wrote:Vette wrote:A strong person can kill people with a pencil. Murders are gonna murder, with or without guns.
Not 16, and injure 40 odd though!
Timothy McVeigh killed 168 , and injured more than 680 people with a rental truck parked in the right place with less than $5000 of materials.
Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:34 pm
#13959- chris hansonMember
I'm not sure taking that right away would change much, at least not for a long time.
Hypothetically, if I wanted to and went with the right person, I could drive 10 minutes to the city of Buffalo and within a few hours walk out with an Ak-47 and enough ammo to take down a lot of people.
Hypothetically speaking, why don't these people who do school shootings just pull the fire alarm and wait for the hallways to become a shooting gallery?
Hypothetically, if I wanted to and went with the right person, I could drive 10 minutes to the city of Buffalo and within a few hours walk out with an Ak-47 and enough ammo to take down a lot of people.
Hypothetically speaking, why don't these people who do school shootings just pull the fire alarm and wait for the hallways to become a shooting gallery?
Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:40 pm
#13962- sharpPUSB
- Location : City of Dreams, England
chris hanson wrote:I'm not sure taking that right away would change much, at least not for a long time.
Hypothetically, if I wanted to and went with the right person, I could drive 10 minutes to the city of Buffalo and within a few hours walk out with an Ak-47 and enough ammo to take down a lot of people.
Hypothetically speaking, why don't these people who do school shootings just pull the fire alarm and wait for the hallways to become a shooting gallery?
No point in putting off things cause they are going to take a long time. Look how long British and American troops were in Iraq for? Hell, we both still have a military presence in Germany.
You could obtain an illegal firearm, but its not as easy as going to a gun shop and buying one. The people who commit such crimes, tend to be skinny, geeky white kids. Going up to a gang, black, Hispanic or what ever and offering to buy a gun with $5000 cash, is probably going to leave you with a fat lip, and $5000 down.
Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:44 pm
#13963- sharpPUSB
- Location : City of Dreams, England
Kaz--Money wrote:
Timothy McVeigh killed 168 , and injured more than 680 people with a rental truck parked in the right place with less than $5000 of materials.
True. Not sure of your point though? There are now laws in place in the UK after 7/7 for buying fertiliser, peroxide etc. I imagine there in the US too.
Colorado (or so the media here tells me) have no register to monitor who is buying what gun, when and how much ammo.
A simple change to the law to record who is buying what, could have stopped what happened on Friday. Especially after what happened at Columbine.
Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:52 pm
#13965- VetteBrownie
- Location : Ohio
sharp wrote:chris hanson wrote:I'm not sure taking that right away would change much, at least not for a long time.
Hypothetically, if I wanted to and went with the right person, I could drive 10 minutes to the city of Buffalo and within a few hours walk out with an Ak-47 and enough ammo to take down a lot of people.
Hypothetically speaking, why don't these people who do school shootings just pull the fire alarm and wait for the hallways to become a shooting gallery?
No point in putting off things cause they are going to take a long time. Look how long British and American troops were in Iraq for? Hell, we both still have a military presence in Germany.
You could obtain an illegal firearm, but its not as easy as going to a gun shop and buying one. The people who commit such crimes, tend to be skinny, geeky white kids. Going up to a gang, black, Hispanic or what ever and offering to buy a gun with $5000 cash, is probably going to leave you with a fat lip, and $5000 down.
The skinny geeky white kid isn't the one committing the crime in the first place. The gang is. Mass shootings are rare, but gang crime isn't, thus the different in publicity levels.
Last edited by Vette on Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:52 pm
#13966- chris hansonMember
sharp wrote:chris hanson wrote:I'm not sure taking that right away would change much, at least not for a long time.
Hypothetically, if I wanted to and went with the right person, I could drive 10 minutes to the city of Buffalo and within a few hours walk out with an Ak-47 and enough ammo to take down a lot of people.
Hypothetically speaking, why don't these people who do school shootings just pull the fire alarm and wait for the hallways to become a shooting gallery?
No point in putting off things cause they are going to take a long time. Look how long British and American troops were in Iraq for? Hell, we both still have a military presence in Germany.
You could obtain an illegal firearm, but its not as easy as going to a gun shop and buying one. The people who commit such crimes, tend to be skinny, geeky white kids. Going up to a gang, black, Hispanic or what ever and offering to buy a gun with $5000 cash, is probably going to leave you with a fat lip, and $5000 down.
The time thing is right I guess but I mean so many people already have guns, I don't think it would make a difference if there were stricter laws. Beats me. I'll probably get a concealed carry permit when I am of age because in a society where many have guns, I'd rather have a gun.
Don't matter if you're black white or yellow, as long as you got the green $ That's why everyone needs a black friend lol.
Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:01 pm
#13968- sharpPUSB
- Location : City of Dreams, England
The concealed law is the one that baffles me the most. I can almost see why you want a gun at home, but to carry a hidden one to go and get a pint of milk? Madness.
Step one for fixing/solving (not sure of right word) gun problems would be to ban carrying a firearm in public - unless in a locked box, heading to a gun club.
Give the police greater stop and search powers, anyone caught with a firearm has the gun confiscated, and their firearm licence revoked.
Not going to happen. If I ever visit America, i'm just going to apologise to everyone. No matter how in the wrong they are lol
Step one for fixing/solving (not sure of right word) gun problems would be to ban carrying a firearm in public - unless in a locked box, heading to a gun club.
Give the police greater stop and search powers, anyone caught with a firearm has the gun confiscated, and their firearm licence revoked.
Not going to happen. If I ever visit America, i'm just going to apologise to everyone. No matter how in the wrong they are lol
Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:05 pm
#13970- VetteBrownie
- Location : Ohio
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:21 pm
#13973- sharpPUSB
- Location : City of Dreams, England
Vette wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
??
You cant afford to create a register?
All you need is a webservice from the social security department, and each gun shop to have internet access.
Customer: I'd like to buy a gun please
Shop: Ok, whats your social security number
Customer: 654654
Database: Pings off an email to the local police. 'Dave has tried to buy a gun. He already has 8, go and have a word
Shop: Sorry, I cant sell you a gun today
Customer: FFS
I could get that sorted for you, for around 30k. I'll send Obama a twitter message
Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:21 pm
#13974- Kaz--MoneyMember
- Location : Calgary, AB, Canada
chris hanson wrote:sharp wrote:chris hanson wrote:I'm not sure taking that right away would change much, at least not for a long time.
Hypothetically, if I wanted to and went with the right person, I could drive 10 minutes to the city of Buffalo and within a few hours walk out with an Ak-47 and enough ammo to take down a lot of people.
Hypothetically speaking, why don't these people who do school shootings just pull the fire alarm and wait for the hallways to become a shooting gallery?
No point in putting off things cause they are going to take a long time. Look how long British and American troops were in Iraq for? Hell, we both still have a military presence in Germany.
You could obtain an illegal firearm, but its not as easy as going to a gun shop and buying one. The people who commit such crimes, tend to be skinny, geeky white kids. Going up to a gang, black, Hispanic or what ever and offering to buy a gun with $5000 cash, is probably going to leave you with a fat lip, and $5000 down.
The time thing is right I guess but I mean so many people already have guns, I don't think it would make a difference if there were stricter laws. Beats me. I'll probably get a concealed carry permit when I am of age because in a society where many have guns, I'd rather have a gun.
Don't matter if you're black white or yellow, as long as you got the green $ That's why everyone needs a black friend lol.
OK, so follow that logic. More people in society carry guns, so, you want to carry a gun.
What now?
You have an armed society. What does that do for conflict resolution?
Shouldn't the direction be....away from guns? Let's face it, the gun lobby wants to have you believe that carrying a gun will reduce gun related voilence. That's like thinking doing crystal meth will reduce meth related deaths.
Look at the vast majority of countries with fewer people carrying firearms, look at countries with strict prohibitions on gun ownership, look at countries where there is no constitutional guarantee to carry a firearm, and you'll see that the VAST majority of them also have lower per capita firearm related deaths.
A proliferation of personal firearms is analogous to the Cold War arms race. It is a steady escalation with no positive outcome to be determined. It's like legalizing drugs, child porn, or having no age limit on alcohol consumption.
To date, no sound argument has been produced as to why it's a good thing to continually arm a nations citizens. Even in the wake of an incident like this, there is no cogent argument as to what unlimited / unfettered possession of firearms by the general public would have provided those in that theater.
More people shooting, higher chance of civilian casualties, prolonged investigation of an increasingly complex crime scene....
Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:22 pm
#13975- chris hansonMember
sharp wrote:The concealed law is the one that baffles me the most. I can almost see why you want a gun at home, but to carry a hidden one to go and get a pint of milk? Madness.
Step one for fixing/solving (not sure of right word) gun problems would be to ban carrying a firearm in public - unless in a locked box, heading to a gun club.
Give the police greater stop and search powers, anyone caught with a firearm has the gun confiscated, and their firearm licence revoked.
Not going to happen. If I ever visit America, i'm just going to apologise to everyone. No matter how in the wrong they are lol
Nothing wrong with a revolver tucked in your driver side door for easy access. And no thanks, I do not want to live in a police state.
Maybe that mentality is due to my mom and dad being cops, and my dad having said his gun has saved him a time or two makes it worth it to me.
Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:24 pm
#13976- VetteBrownie
- Location : Ohio
sharp wrote:Vette wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
??
You cant afford to create a register?
All you need is a webservice from the social security department, and each gun shop to have internet access.
Customer: I'd like to buy a gun please
Shop: Ok, whats your social security number
Customer: 654654
Database: Pings off an email to the local police. 'Dave has tried to buy a gun. He already has 8, go and have a word
Shop: Sorry, I cant sell you a gun today
Customer: FFS
I could get that sorted for you, for around 30k. I'll send Obama a twitter message
Nope, what I'm saying is guns and crime are the LEAST of our worries. Crime in the US is going down, debt is going up fast. We are going to get crushed by it. And as a 17 year old who is inheriting that mountain of debt on my country, it pisses me off. The biggest crime in history is passing off $16 Trillion in debt to the next generation.
Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:25 pm
#13977- sharpPUSB
- Location : City of Dreams, England
2009 UK gun deaths - 38
Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:26 pm
#13978- chris hansonMember
I think legalizing drugz (not for personal benefit, don't even bother saying that) would help with crime more than anything involving guns would.....
And sharp, if you ever visit america, you will be spending time with me.
And sharp, if you ever visit america, you will be spending time with me.
Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:27 pm
#13979- Kaz--MoneyMember
- Location : Calgary, AB, Canada
sharp wrote:Vette wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
??
You cant afford to create a register?
All you need is a webservice from the social security department, and each gun shop to have internet access.
Customer: I'd like to buy a gun please
Shop: Ok, whats your social security number
Customer: 654654
Database: Pings off an email to the local police. 'Dave has tried to buy a gun. He already has 8, go and have a word
Shop: Sorry, I cant sell you a gun today
Customer: FFS
I could get that sorted for you, for around 30k. I'll send Obama a twitter message
The gun nuts in Canada, who see the US model as a utopia, fought a registry here for years. You know why? They argued "it would be too expensive".
So, they dug their heels in and for years, threw up roadblocks and objected. The bill for the program, that never got off it's feet because of their peurile hissyfits over a very rational program, bloated to over ONE BILLION dollars.
I don't expect tghe laws in the US to change....but the dialogue certainly must.
Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:28 pm
#13980- Triple_0_OughtMember
sharp wrote:The concealed law is the one that baffles me the most. I can almost see why you want a gun at home, but to carry a hidden one to go and get a pint of milk? Madness.
What if someone pulls a knife on you when you get a pint of milk? What if you witness a assault, rape, or murder in progress?
Don't know why you would be worried about people carrying concealed anyway. The crime rate among those with a concealed carry permit is far below the average.
When Texas finally allowed concealed carry, there were the usual warnings that there would be a Wild West shootout on every corner and people would murder each other for the silliest reasons. None of that happened, and in some places crime actually went down.
Don't have a permit myself, but I might look into sometime. I think of it the same way as having a fire extinguisher or a first aid kit in your car.
Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:28 pm
#13981- sharpPUSB
- Location : City of Dreams, England
Vette wrote:
Nope, what I'm saying is guns and crime are the LEAST of our worries. Crime in the US is going down, debt is going up fast. We are going to get crushed by it. And as a 17 year old who is inheriting that mountain of debt on my country, it pisses me off. The biggest crime in history is passing off $16 Trillion in debt to the next generation.
National debt didnt kill 14 people watching a batman film!
Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:31 pm
#13982- chris hansonMember
[b]Kaz--Money wrote:chris hanson wrote:sharp wrote:chris hanson wrote:I'm not sure taking that right away would change much, at least not for a long time.
Hypothetically, if I wanted to and went with the right person, I could drive 10 minutes to the city of Buffalo and within a few hours walk out with an Ak-47 and enough ammo to take down a lot of people.
Hypothetically speaking, why don't these people who do school shootings just pull the fire alarm and wait for the hallways to become a shooting gallery?
No point in putting off things cause they are going to take a long time. Look how long British and American troops were in Iraq for? Hell, we both still have a military presence in Germany.
You could obtain an illegal firearm, but its not as easy as going to a gun shop and buying one. The people who commit such crimes, tend to be skinny, geeky white kids. Going up to a gang, black, Hispanic or what ever and offering to buy a gun with $5000 cash, is probably going to leave you with a fat lip, and $5000 down.
The time thing is right I guess but I mean so many people already have guns, I don't think it would make a difference if there were stricter laws. Beats me. I'll probably get a concealed carry permit when I am of age because in a society where many have guns, I'd rather have a gun.
Don't matter if you're black white or yellow, as long as you got the green $ That's why everyone needs a black friend lol.
OK, so follow that logic. More people in society carry guns, so, you want to carry a gun.
What now?
You have an armed society. What does that do for conflict resolution?
Mutually assured destruction?
Shouldn't the direction be....away from guns? Let's face it, the gun lobby wants to have you believe that carrying a gun will reduce gun related voilence. That's like thinking doing crystal meth will reduce meth related deaths.
Not sure I'm following the meth logic.
Look at the vast majority of countries with fewer people carrying firearms, look at countries with strict prohibitions on gun ownership, look at countries where there is no constitutional guarantee to carry a firearm, and you'll see that the VAST majority of them also have lower per capita firearm related deaths.
I'll have to look some stuff up.
A proliferation of personal firearms is analogous to the Cold War arms race. It is a steady escalation with no positive outcome to be determined. It's like legalizing drugs, child porn, or having no age limit on alcohol consumption.
Jesus, I quoted your post and started replying before I read through the whole thing... looks like that bit me in the ass, I'll keep going though
To date, no sound argument has been produced as to why it's a good thing to continually arm a nations citizens. Even in the wake of an incident like this, there is no cogent argument as to what unlimited / unfettered possession of firearms by the general public would have provided those in that theater.
May or may not be anecdotal evidence, but I recall hearing that Japan would never considering a land invasion of the US pointless because the country is armed to the teeth. Not saying it's justification but just a thought.
More people shooting, higher chance of civilian casualties, prolonged investigation of an increasingly complex crime scene....
I guess the way I see it is just the threat of someone having a gun is enough to deter violence
Alright forgive me as this new forum is confusing the hell out of me. Hope my responses are clear in hte quoted.
Last edited by chris hanson on Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:32 pm
#13983- VetteBrownie
- Location : Ohio
sharp wrote:2009 UK gun deaths - 38
2009 England and Wales violent crime rate: 1600 per 100,000 citizens
2009 United States violent crime rate: 403.9 per 100,000 citizens (and crime is dropping in the US, unlike in the UK)
Sure you have fewer gun related crimes, but your criminals obviously find other ways.
Your Home Office gave the violent crime number in terms of per 1000 people, which made it be 16 per 1,000. If we did the same in the US, it would be 4 and some change.
Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:33 pm
#13984- VetteBrownie
- Location : Ohio
sharp wrote:Vette wrote:
Nope, what I'm saying is guns and crime are the LEAST of our worries. Crime in the US is going down, debt is going up fast. We are going to get crushed by it. And as a 17 year old who is inheriting that mountain of debt on my country, it pisses me off. The biggest crime in history is passing off $16 Trillion in debt to the next generation.
National debt didnt kill 14 people watching a batman film!
National debt is going to kill many more when it finally catches up to us. Rioting in the streets isn't always peaceful. As you would know, the UK has its share of rioting.
Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:34 pm
#13985- chris hansonMember
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You're more than twice as likely to get stabbed in the UK than you are to be shot in the US
You're more than twice as likely to get stabbed in the UK than you are to be shot in the US
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